interesting developments…

Well well well… we’ve had some exciting/disappointing for some developments from mythic today, in the form of changes to the way dok/wp heals will work in future.

before i get into that though, i had a comment regarding my last post, i’m sorry the guy doesn’t have a blog, however he does have a twitter, follow him @AndyBursh

now then, into the nitty gritty. perhapse to break precedent, Steven Engle gave some figures over the core tester IRC channel which i’ve been allowed to share with you all. it’s nothing amazing or fantastical or anything like that. just a “before and after” sort of thing:
[16:37:08]  so for example if you once healed for 1280, it will be closer to 720ish

with that in mind, let’s review a few things. firstly, the way Khaines Embrace used to work:

  • 1 second cast time, 1.5 second cooldown = 2.5 seconds between casts (in-theory).
  • 60 SE per cast = 24 SE per second cost
  • 1280 non-crit heal

and how it’s going to work:

  • 1 second cast time, 0 cooldown, 1.4 second GCD = 1.4 seconds between casts
  • 60 SE per cast = 43 SE per second cost
  • 720 non-crit heal

so let’s do the usual math bust here. over a period of 10 seconds, in the old ways you could likely have gotten off 4 casts (if there are no interrupts or setbacks). over the course of that 10 seconds, assuming full sovereign + mythic chalice, you could regen up to 220 SE. this would almost negate the cost of the heals, as they would cost 240. you could suppliment this with 1 use of Essence Lash to regen another 45 SE, however it’s un-needed and you’ll get the full 4 over 10 seconds anyway, for a total of 5120 non-crits worth of health in ten seconds

now… under the new system, you could theoretically cast 7 heals. theoretically.
now, why is that only a theory? well. first of all, that would cost a whopping 420 SE. you can regen a maximum of 265 if you get an essence lash in there. but even then that takes away one of your heals, as it costs a GCD to use. so now we’re down to 6 heals. those heals are 54% less effective than they used to be too (720 = 56% of 1280). of those 6 heals you only have enough RF to cast 4, and then another on the 11th second. giving you just 2880 worth of non-crit heals over the same 10 seconds.

this actually gets progressively worse. as the fight goes on, you’ll need to use more abilities to regen your soul essence (yes, even in full sovereign). each of those abilities takes away 1 gcd that you could have used to cast a group heal.

this has the knock-on effect of causing fewer heals to be cast instead of more, over an extended time period. and for a lower delve value. i actually think this was a clever move, it’s bringing dok/wp heals to where they should be: supportive aoe, leaving “burst” healing to clothie careers.

edit: some 8 hours later or something… after some ZZ’s.

it was pointed out to me on the WHA forum that “ZOMG UR MATHS SUCKS!!”, because they correctly pointed out that at the start of a fight, dok/wp have 250 resources at their disposal anyway.  so with that in mind, currently you will run out of SE…. never, you can keep pumping out the heals every 2.5 seconds for ever and ever and ever.

with the new changes, you’ll run out after 10 seconds, giving you the full 7 heals if you really want to spam them (for a total of 5040 heals) within that 10 seconds. but again as in the above example, you’re out of SE and you have very few ways to reliably regenerate it. really, after the initial hit of a fight, dok/wp are likely to find that their healing suffers a lot purely because they’re used to just spamming a button and everything being ok.

good players will work around it, but the majority of terribads out there, who are fotm rerollers who played the career so their guild wb could get an ez win? well… they’re gonna get a pretty hard kick in.


29 Responses to “interesting developments…”

  1. Excellent post. Not playing a DoK/WP means I did not quite understand the nerf fully. This should puts thing more in line and maybe force the melee healers to be more melee healers to regen their essence.

  2. Remember that the current cooldown starts at cast completion and global cooldown starts at cast start. So a 1.4 GCD on a 1 second cast is actually a .4 second cooldown. And then remember warhammer is buggy and the GCD doesn’t even really work half the time…

  3. MMmmmm, not sure about this. Yes it’s a major mechanic change, but I have to be honest, but the WP/DoKs were the only people able to keep up with the AOE damage that certain warbands are able to put out.

    This is going to reduce the top end of healing and effecting decrease the time to kill, which I thought Mythic wanted to keep high.

    I need to put some more thought into this, but this seems to be the opposite of what I think the way to go is. Bring the clothe healers up a bit.

  4. Oh yeh burst healing can’t keep up with top end warbands. I have experienced it a number of times, but once they target a player, it goes down. By the time I have clicked on it, that player is dead, even when guarded.

  5. yeah i think ideally we’d all have liked for clothie healers to be buffed first. but that’s not to say it won’t happen in future? the other thing is, dok/wp NEEDED a nerf. they really are too op (i know, i play one)!

    mythic said this is one of more changes to come. this is likely to go live pretty soon, so i can imagine the other changes coming fast as well. hopefully (fingers crossed) it will go like this in future, with weekly, or biweekly or something regular like that, tweaks to career mechanics for balance. instead of waiting for each big patch.

  6. oh thank god. hope this brings them under the OP.

  7. now healing with a dok/wp is worthless?

    should we just play other classes then?

    • if your going to nerf the heal that badly could you atleast lower the cost a bit?

      the aoe heal is about the main heal for a dr dok…otherwise that tree becomes worthless

  8. I think this is an interesting change, and I think it’s a step in the right direction. It’ll certainly make the WP/DOK heals less “spikey” and more sustained which is what they always were supposed to be given their fast cast times. It also forces them to manage their SE/RF wisely and actually work at it to maintain it and even run out of it at times, just like any cloth healer has to do.

    What it does not do, is address the survivability gap between clothies and WP/DOK, nor does it potentially re-address the imbalance between single target and groupheals.

    In theory, WP/DOK can get off 2 groupheals in 2.5s, the same as one single target heal takes to cast. Will those 2 groupheals still hit for more than one single target heal? We can only guess at this moment.

  9. roflcopter Says:

    No no no… this is GREAT! It worked in DAOC right? Just nerf a class, have people migrate to another class, and keep people playing a little longer.

    Oh except we dont have what, 36 classes in this game?

    Guys, DOK melee damage may be a bit high. Healers(wp/dok) may be a bit hard to kill. That has NOTHING to do with the group heal. Neither of those common problems has anything at all to do with a group heal. If I group heal under 50%? I’m dead. If I hit aoe detaunt + divine assault under 50% health? I might live.

    Are you all pissed because WPs are at the top of the sc scorecard? First off, who cares about that number, and why? And second off, how is a nerf preferable to having Rps and AMs brought up to par?

    People die before I can click on their names. NOW. I can’t imagine how awsome this crap will be once this patch goes through.

    And btw, to “force the melee healers to be more melee” you need to fix the WP’s melee spec.

  10. as I predicted, this will either:

    a) make DoKs/WPs go melee healing and only selfheal
    b) make DoKs/WPs stick with backline healing and be gimped

    a) or b), It doesnt matter, the resulf will be a huge increase of TTK that everybody will cry their brains out about except most likely WP/DoKs that only sefheal LOL

    congratz to the hordes of morons that complained about WP/DoKs in a game with classes like BWs insta gibbing people left and right (and wh have dodged the nerf hammer eternally), you have ruined your OWN play time. enjoy dying nonstop

  11. WPs/DoKs were the ONLY counter for the massive AOE damage spam that plagues this game. nerfing their group heal you have effectively made this game into a massive kllfest that only BW/Sorcs will enjoy.

  12. It’s not just the BW/Sorcs, it’s just as much about the melee trains with AOE. It all stacks ontop of each other.

  13. But what if the DoK/WP has full Sov? Shouldn’t he have enough of the essence/fury for AoE spam healing? How does the sovereing change all the calculations?

    • it doesn’t, the example above assumes that the sovereign proc hits twice, giving a total of 120 SE/RF within the 10 second window. if it doesn’t hit at all you would only get a total of 100 within 10 seconds from the chalice.

      even with 7 piece sovereign, it’s not going to be easy to sustain SE/RF.

  14. I actually think the 2 classes will keep their BURSTY group heals but they will be unable to everlast like now. It makes the player struggle to keep a costant flow of heals but they can aoe burst for long enough t the beginning of an engage. The essence regen items, tactics and so on will keep the dok/wp at maximum of 12 secs of spam with an average 8 secs for not topped players. On the other side this will oblige players to find ways to regen (like beeing melee healers?) or use melee heals to fill the holes in healing timespan. Granted good players will anyway find a way to be effective, but at least the poor players will go down instead of beeing alive for ages just spamming a skill…

  15. Rook Frjosa Says:

    I was hoping that the devs would open up with changes to the resource mechanics (you know, address fixing archetype and all), but this is not a terrible first step.

    As I see it, if you want to see the melee-healing fixed, you need people to actually go out and seriously melee-heal. In order pull off that Herculean feat, you must give all those backline DoKs/WPs (I think, are still the vast majority) some reason to WANT to try and melee-heal, which also means having less incentive to sit in the back (two birds with one stone to make the other healers feel useful again).

    You can’t get good info on what to do with melee-heals if relatively nobody uses it.I doubt that this is really the direction they are moving for, but if they were, this would be a good way to start.

    Still need to fix the archetype though, by addressing the resource mechanic and its integration in the classes, otherwise the whole thing is built on a foundation of fail.

  16. You made a mistake:

    and how it’s going to work:

    * 1 second cast time, 0 cooldown, 1.4 second GCD = 0.4 seconds between casts

    Not 1.4

    • oh i’m sorry… did i miss the part where you have to wait 1.4 seconds between each button press?

      get a clue.

      • Investiion Says:

        lol GDC starts when you use the ability not after.

        So maybe you get a clue

      • lol… ok let’s see if i can help you understand this.

        you push the button, the gcd starts, the heal goes off 1 second later, the gcd ends 0.4 sec after that.

        if you press the heal button again, you have to wait another 1 second before that heal goes off. there is 1.4 seconds between each heal hitting. or longer if there are setbacks/interrupts.


  17. Hmm justice for the million angy archmages today ?
    My personal cosmic justice ? Nah, well the number crunching is a bit weird allthough i enjoyed the popcorn when i read all the new info.
    I would prefer to see mirroring between wp/doks and making balance between cloth and medium armor healers. Improving healling carreers for cloth healers alike and doks.
    This will push more wps and doks to go melee healing in pug scenario’s and orvr. I never was a big fan of meleehealers/ or dps am to begin with.

  18. There is some good news. Since the healing spikes are closer together, but for a lesser value, then the overhealing may be reduced.

    If I get hit for 500, then a 1000 a second or so a part, then a big heal may only clear down the 500 or the 1000, but a smaller bang bang bang may allow them to cope better.

    Also what abilities from tactics from other classes, may help to increase regen rates?

  19. […] don’t profess to know the power required to keep things ticking along as before, but based on Bruglirs data from Friday, I drew up a little chart to show the healing spikes and their frequency over […]

  20. The WP/DoK that never ever runs out of RF is a myth. You HAVE smite/EL or supplicate/blood offer in a a healing rotation.

    Also when you factor in healing debuffs that are pretty much the tipping point of any fight, your team wins or loses based on effective(lol) use of 50% incoming and outgoing healing debuffs. So now you take 25% effective healing on a 700 hp heal and you basically are healing for 175… I fail to see how this is reasonable to anyone with a brain when DPS classes are still doing thousands of points of damage per ability through guard/detaunt.

  21. this brings us back to the problem of dok/wp not being able to gear/stat with consistency. similar to the problem of zealots/rp having their heals spread through 3 different trees and having to choose between single target heals and group heals, dok/wp will now have to gear and stat for either melee heals (single target) or willpower (group heals/hots), with neither allowing them to be a complete healer.

    gearing for melee heals means wep skill and strength, making hots and group heals less effective. gearing for willpower means a less effective single target heal (rend soul). shaman/AM will be the only healers with all of their heals benefitting from the same mastery tree/gear/stat. seems that mechanics and archetypes should have been addressed instead of this type of change.

  22. Not sure you had the old cool down correct at all for the group heals which totally would throw all your math off. For all intents and purposes the Cool down on the group heal was .5 seconds after it completed casting. Also, Landaren dont be such a newb WP. Smite is far superior to Essence Lash. Only an idiot would think otherwise. I swear the most ignorant comments on the discussions of melee healers come from WP almost 100% of the time. Stuff like essense lash = smite, exalted defense isn’t that good, and the cure on hot isn’t that good. Thats the type or moronory we are subjected too from WP every single day on any blog or forum dedicated to WAR

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